Donald Trump has decided not to run for president. Michael Barbaro, of The New York Times, talks to Steve Inskeep about Trump's finances. Trump declared he wasn't running before having to disclose any financial history.
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RENEE MONTAGNE, host:
This is MORNING EDITION from NPR News. I'm Renee Montagne.
STEVE INSKEEP, host:
And I'm Steve Inskeep.
Here's a consequence of Donald Trump's announcement that he won't run for president. We will not learn more about his finances. Mr. Trump boasted of his wealth and even said he could finance his own campaign, prompting calls for him to release his tax returns. Trump avoided the question various ways, once saying he might release the returns if President Obama released his birth certificate. The president did, but Mr. Trump did not. But New York Times reporter Michael Barbaro has been following Trump's businesses.
Welcome to the program.
Mr. MICHAEL BARBARO (Reporter, New York Times): Good morning, Steve.
INSKEEP: Trump has described himself as fabulously wealthy. Has he ever been worth as much as he has said?
Mr. BARBARO: Well, considerably mystery shrouds Mr. Trump's actual net worth. And various people have taken stabs at the question. One of them was my colleague Timothy O'Brien, who had the temerity in a book to suggest that Mr. Trump was worth far less than a billion. He was sued for libel. And his publisher spent millions of dollars defending him.
INSKEEP: And how did that lawsuit end up?
Mr. BARBARO: The case was dismissed, but among the fascinating things to emerge from the lawsuit was a deposition in which Mr. Trump was sworn, you know, under oath to describe his net worth. And in this interview some very startling revelations emerged. One of them being that his net worth can vary with his feelings.
INSKEEP: That meaning that he would state what he thought is various real estate properties or whatever might be worth on a given day and that would be -if he was giving you an estimate of his net worth that would be what he would base it on.
Mr. BARBARO: Sort of. I mean, it's almost worth reading from this deposition for one second. He actually said, and I quote, "My net worth fluctuates and it goes up and down with markets and with attitudes and with feelings, even my own feeling." So what exactly is it pegged to? If it's his feelings, it's certainly questionable.
INSKEEP: So Trump has not fully disclosed what he's worth or what all of his business enterprises are, but you looked into some of them. What did you find?
Mr. BARBARO: Well, just to be clear, you know, Forbes puts him at $2.7 billion. And he loves that. Of course, what he says is it's much more. And much more are two of his favorite words.
I took a look at his real estate and his education portfolio. And if you didn't know that Donald Trump had entered the education business, then you should go online and look at what's called the Trump Entrepreneur Institute, which is formerly known as Trump University. And the classes cost up to $35,000 a year, and people invest a lot of money and hope of quick riches in them. And according to lawsuits and complaints, some of them have been very disappointed.
INSKEEP: So that didn't work out very well. You also looked into real estate in Florida?
Mr. BARBARO: Yeah, there were two properties in Florida and one in Mexico that all had the Trump name on them. And the marketing materials all said Trump, Trump, Trump. And he in quotes for press releases or in videos said this is my development. It's my first project on the Gulf of Mexico in the case of a Tampa project.
But when the projects went belly up Mr. Trump terminated the licensing agreements behind them. And people were very surprised to realize that these were just licensing agreements, that he had given his name and very little else to these projects and he could walk away and pocket pretty hefty license fees and the buyers in many cases lost their deposits. And also were just sort of heartbroken to find out that he wasn't in fact the developer as they thought he was.
INSKEEP: It was just his name. He was licensing his name and that was it. And he walked away with his money?
Mr. BARBARO: He did. And licensing has become a huge part of who Donald Trump is over the last few years. And I think what would've unfolded in the campaign was, you know, a series of conversations about how he was really not much of a developer anymore, particularly of buildings - really much more of a licenser, somebody who says pay me for the use of my name.
And that's really his genius - is figuring out ways to keep himself relevant enough that his name is worth something on a bottle of water or a building.
INSKEEP: Do you have any reason to suspect that Trump might not have wanted to run for president and that he hadn't declared his candidacy because the pressure would've increased for him to be more clear about where his money comes from and how much he actually has?
INSKEEP: I think that did factor into it somewhat, but I think the biggest motivator was the incredibly lucrative deal that NBC offered him. And I think the venue he chose to make the announcement spoke volumes. It was the presentation NBC makes to its advertisers who cheered very loudly when he announced that he was going to stick with "The Apprentice," which is worth tens and tens of millions of dollars to him.
INSKEEP: Does he need the work?
Mr. BARBARO: He loves the work. He loves being on camera. He loves being relevant, on the top of people's tongues. Does he need the money? It's unclear, because it's entirely unclear exactly what his wealth is.
INSKEEP: Michael Barbaro of the New York Times, thanks very much.
Mr. BARBARO: Thank you.
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